Danish Nationalist leader says Danish identity under threat from Muslim immigrants

[Ellinas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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Let's start with Alpha : does it mean sth in Greek ? only symbolic meaning which means "start, beginning" or " arxi". And aleph, alpha for Phonecian, means "ox". if you see miniscule a, you'll see a head of ox. > Sevan Nishanian; Armenian-Turkish Etymologist..

What do you mean "let's start" with Alpha? There is no need for the expression "let's start" because this is all what you said Winking smilie. And this is probably the only argument of the supporters of the theory that the Hellenic alphabet originates from the Phoenicians.

An argument like this can easily be a coincidence. But when they are many arguments like this, the coincidence is ruled out. I am going to show what I mean. Every word of the Hellenic alphabet is based on a related word of the Hellenic language. For example:

You know the importance of tools in the prehistoric society.
The letter Τ comes from the word Τύπτω (tipto) which means “I hit (with a hammer)”. As you see the letter T has the shape of the hammer, and the sound produced by this hitting is “taf” which is the Greek letter’s name.
The letter Γ symbolizes the angular tool (Γ has the shape of the angle) that is used for carving. Carving produces a sound like “γγγ” that’s why the sound of the letter. A very important carving tool back then was the plow, which was called Γύης (Yiis)again a word starting with Γ.

The letter Ρ comes from the word Ροή (Roi) which means flow. The shape of the letter symbolizes a liquid that flows from a round vessel.

The letter Λ comes from the word Λας (Las) which means sharp/pointy rock in very early Hellenic form. That’s why it has this shape. The letter shape is similar in the old Cypriot alphabet as it has the same word as root.

The letter M symbolizes Maternity: Μητρότητα (mitrotita) in Hellenic language. The shape of the letters symbolizes the legs of a woman the moment she gives a birth, she becomes Mother.

The letter Θ comes from the word Θέα (thea) which means “view” and its shape symbolizes the eye (used to view).

The letter Φ comes from the word Φυσώ (fiso) which means “blow” and symbolizes the sails of a ship while they are blown by the wind.

The letter Ξ comes from the word Ξαίνω (xaeno) which means “I tease”. As you see Ξ has the shape of the comb, the tool used to tease.

The letter Z comes from the word Ζεύς (Zeus) and it is obvious that it has the shape of the thunder.

Now, regarding the Greek vowels, their shapes simply symbolize the shape of the human mouth while these vowels are pronounced.

The letter O symbolizes the round mouth while this letter is pronounced.
The letter I symbolizes the linear mouth while this letter is pronounced.
The same goes about the letters A, E etc.

I know that the last part doesn’t have to be a Greek invention, but I think the explanation of the consonants is enough evidence for the “Hellenism” of the Hellenic alphabet.

Every Greek letter has its symbolism. I did not mention all the Greek letters, but many of them. I am just asking you to explain me any association between these letters and their Phoenician words. The only one you could mention was Alef :). Besides the fact that I am still trying to find how A looks like an ox, I haven’t seen any real serious proof concerning the so-called Phoenician origin of the Hellenic alphabet. The fact that it is a spread theory and adopted by many people, doesn’t mean that it is a proven theory. Winking smilie

It is just like the situation with the Indo-European theory. It is the most spread theory regarding the origin of the Europeans but all the evidence is against it.

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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even the names in arabic, hebrew and greek letters look similar:

arabic hebrew greek
alif aleph alpha
be beth beta
gim gimel gamma
dhal daleth delta
lam lamde lamda
ta taw taf
...............

These similarities are a fact. But I don't see how this indicates that these names originate from the Phoenicians and not from the Hellenes?

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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Here is what Carl Faulman says: and by the way, if Carl Faulman means nothing to you, this topic is over. :SLEEP:

Topic is over? Sorry, but I don't get you here. Is this Mr Faulman the only person of the planet who has an opinion on glossology or something? Smiley

[Mr. Verenidou]

Ellinas, that post was just great and it really makes sense.

* about that "head of ox", it's not capital A but miniscule one, a. You can see that it looks like a head of ox.

Those explanations about the Greek Letters are a good composition but then it makes me think that it's possible to find convenient Arabic words for the alphabet and claim the same as you do for Greek letters. it's possible. Or even for Latin.

Carl Faulman is a leader in alphabetic studies (do not remember the academic word for alphabet-logy) and though his first book of the whole alphabets used in the world,from aztec to morse code, was published in 1878 ,it is still regardd as a reference to "alphabetology" .Certainly, it has been edited and enriched.

"These similarities are a fact. But I don't see how this indicates that these names originate from the Phoenicians and not from the Hellenes?"


It's because, it is Phonecians who invented " the alphabet based on letters/phonemes rather than pictograms or hieroglyfs". So it's more likely that the others took from Phonecian rather than the reverseWinking smilie

[Ellinas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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Ellinas, that post was just great and it really makes sense.

* about that "head of ox", it's not capital A but miniscule one, a. You can see that it looks like a head of ox.

OK, I see now. But if I am not mistaken the miniscule a in the form it is used today was introduced by the Westerns (Latins or Germanics) wasn't it? The alef used by the Phonecians was like the capital A.

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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Those explanations about the Greek Letters are a good composition but then it makes me think that it's possible to find convenient Arabic words for the alphabet and claim the same as you do for Greek letters. it's possible. Or even for Latin.

I don't know any Arabic besides Salam Aleikum and Allahu Akbaar :D. So if you know anything that indicate a symbolism of the letters in Arabian I would be curious to hear it.

Regarding the Phoenician symbolism, the arguments of the ones who follow the Phoenician theory can't persuade me. Even if I accept the ox part, what about the others? They say that Vita comes from the Phoenician "vit" which means house and Delta comes from the Phoenician "dalet" that means Gate etc. But no resemblance of these objects with the letters can be found. Unlike Greek where I pointed out the reseblances.

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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Carl Faulman is a leader in alphabetic studies (do not remember the academic word for alphabet-logy) and though his first book of the whole alphabets used in the world,from aztec to morse code, was published in 1878 ,it is still regardd as a reference to "alphabetology" .Certainly, it has been edited and enriched.

I don't doubt his work, but his theory is just a theory, an opinion. Not a natural law or something. I just did not agree with the way you said "End of conversation".

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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["These similarities are a fact. But I don't see how this indicates that these names originate from the Phoenicians and not from the Hellenes?"

It's because, it is Phonecians who invented " the alphabet based on letters/phonemes rather than pictograms or hieroglyfs". So it's more likely that the others took from Phonecian rather than the reverseWinking smilie

Even the followers of the Phoenician theory admit that there is a pictogram behind every letter. You mentioned it your self (alef/ox behind A etc. etc.)

What I am trying to find out, a link between the letters and the objects the followers of the Phoenician theory claim that symbolize. Just as I said before I can't find many links, while I can in Greek. How it is more likely that the others took it from the Phoenicians while all the links between these letters and words are between words of the Hellenic language and not the Phoenician one.

[half greek]

Turkie said the Latin alphabet is the most convenient one for Turkish alphabet. You can not write Turkish in Arabic, hebrew or Greek alphabet. The alphabets used by Turks in Asia do not correspond to the modern sounds and phonems today, so Latin alphabet is the best for Turkish.

You are a typical Turk, all you wright is lies! Turks used the Arabic alphabet until 1929, but now the Modern Turkish alphabet uses letters similar to the Latin alphabet, but it has 29 letters.

[Mr. Verenidou]

Half-greek : do you speak Turkish ? do you know the arabic and hebrew alphabet as well ?

i do. i can speak Turkish. i can read and write in arabic, hebrew and greek alphabets. So i know that Latin alphabet is the best for Turkish language.

Turkish language has 8 vowels. Arabic and hebrew do not correspond to those vowels. Arabic does not have:

ch : as in cherry
p : as in pill
j : as in journe in French
eu : as in hurt
v : this sound is peculiar to turkish but is like weiss in German.

there are no specific letters for vowels in modern arabic, but in Kuran, they put some dots and lines over or beneath the letters to specify the vowels. It s the same for Hebrew.

Greek alphabet does not have:

eu : as in hurt
sh : as in ship
ch: as in cherry
ue: as in bûcher in German
no g : as in gem
gh : as in neighbor
e : as in washes

* these sounds have seperate and specific letters in Turkish alphabet but if i write them here, you wont be able to see them.

but Latin has all of them, more than that, every nation modified it to adjust to the language.

writing Turkish language in arabic alphabet is a torture or in Greek.

we made up a letter "ş" which equals to "sh" and after Turks, Romanians adopted it as well.

[Ellinas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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Greek alphabet does not have:

eu : as in hurt
sh : as in ship
ch: as in cherry
ue: as in bûcher in German
no g : as in gem
gh : as in neighbor
e : as in washes

We can say that "ch" and "g" sounds exist in Greek language, but with two-letter pthongs not with letters (τσ and τζ). The others don't so I can see your logic with the Latin alphabet being more suitable for Turkish though.

What I can't understand with Turkish sounds is which is the difference between i and ι (in the word canιm for example :D). Maybe ι is what you mentioned as e in "washes" while i is like the Greek Ι?

[Mr. Verenidou]

You are right Ellinas. Sostos :o)

ts: it does exist in Greek but it is not the same with "ch". ("ch" is "ç" in Turkish)

- ts is like "z" in German;

* zwei(two) > tsvai: or that letter like a digit 4 in Russian Alphabet.

tz: not the same with "g" like when you say: intzidi (pearl).

i guess most of the Greek words which contain "tz" sound are borrowed. though i Like that sound so much - i can make a perfect Greek accent in Turkish : )

and about ı: There are 6 "i" sounds in Greek :oi, y,h, ı... it makes hard to figure though.

ı is a totally different sound. and the funny thing is:

sık: means frequent, tight ; often

sik : is the slang word for penis. So you have to be careful. : )

[Ellinas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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You are right Ellinas. Sostos :o)

ts: it does exist in Greek but it is not the same with "ch". ("ch" is "ç" in Turkish)

- ts is like "z" in German;

* zwei(two) > tsvai: or that letter like a digit 4 in Russian Alphabet.

tz: not the same with "g" like when you say: intzidi (pearl).

i guess most of the Greek words which contain "tz" sound are borrowed. though i Like that sound so much - i can make a perfect Greek accent in Turkish : )

and about ı: There are 6 "i" sounds in Greek :oi, y,h, ı... it makes hard to figure though.

ı is a totally different sound. and the funny thing is:

sık: means frequent, tight ; often

sik : is the slang word for penis. So you have to be careful. : )

I see, it's the thick sounded "ch". It doesn't exist in Demotic Greek but it exists in some Hellenic languages like Cretan and Cypriot. For example in Cretan for example the letter κ is pronounced like your ç in many occasions.
I think it is because of the Doric influence, other Hellenic languages like Tsakonian or Griko in South Italy have this.

About the τζ, it is true that most of Greek words contaning it are borrowed (from Turkish or Western languages). A lot of Greek last names also contain τζ.

[half greek]

Originally Posted by Mr. Verenidou
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Half-greek : do you speak Turkish ? do you know the arabic and hebrew alphabet as well ?

i do. i can speak Turkish. i can read and write in arabic, hebrew and greek alphabets. So i know that Latin alphabet is the best for Turkish language.

Turkish language has 8 vowels. Arabic and hebrew do not correspond to those vowels. Arabic does not have:

ch : as in cherry
p : as in pill
j : as in journe in French
eu : as in hurt
v : this sound is peculiar to turkish but is like weiss in German.

there are no specific letters for vowels in modern arabic, but in Kuran, they put some dots and lines over or beneath the letters to specify the vowels. It s the same for Hebrew.

Greek alphabet does not have:

eu : as in hurt
sh : as in ship
ch: as in cherry
ue: as in bûcher in German
no g : as in gem
gh : as in neighbor
e : as in washes

* these sounds have seperate and specific letters in Turkish alphabet but if i write them here, you wont be able to see them.

but Latin has all of them, more than that, every nation modified it to adjust to the language.

writing Turkish language in arabic alphabet is a torture or in Greek.

we made up a letter "ş" which equals to "sh" and after Turks, Romanians adopted it as well.

No I don't speak any of those middle eastern languages. :nah: I just corrected your lie that Turkish couldn't be written in Arabic when it use to be until the Turks wanted to try appear more western and use the Latin alphabet.

[Mr. Verenidou]

half-greek : You are the concrete sample of ignorance. I have no word to say.