Bulgarians Thracians?

[antonio]

Originally Posted by Prokomenos
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They are probably most likely refering to the Slavic people or the Turks
If the test was conducted in Turkey than I can definately understand why someone would reach such a conclusion considering that the todays Turk posses blood from pretty much every balkan nationality that exists.

I would also bet that many nationalities in the Balkans have some Greek blood in them to.

The 2006 study included Aromuns, Greeks, Albanians, FYROMers, Romanians. I am not sure about the 2004 study which was cited.

[Ellinas]

Originally Posted by Macedonian
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What is you source?

Thank you
Alexandros

Their facial characteristics are very similar or identical with characteristics of some people from Caucasian tribes.

Strabon presented the Albanians as the people inhabiting the region around Albanus river, North of the Caspain Sea.

Claudios Ptolemeos presents the same in his writings and in his maps.

I don't have more names in my mind now, but if you search you will be able to find more references.

I am not sure which century the Albanians moved to Illyria, but when they moved there they gave their name to the region despite the fact they mixed with the local population (it stopped being called Illyria). Besides the name though, today's Albanian people consist from people of Epirot, Illyrian and Albanian (Caucasian) descent.

The Albanian language is classified in two dialects: Tosk and Gheg.

The Tosk dialect has a lot of Greek elements. Without learning a word of Albanian, they were times I listened Albanians speaking Tosk and I could understand many parts of what they were saying.
The Gheg language on the other side has major differences and is completely incomprehensible for the Greeks.

The Arvanites of Greece can communicate with Tosk Albanians using their language, but it is very difficult for them to communicate Gheg Albanians.

[Prokomenos]

Originally Posted by antonio
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The 2006 study included Aromuns, Greeks, Albanians, FYROMers, Romanians. I am not sure about the 2004 study which was cited.

Your talking about this test?

[size=2]

<H1 class=abstract-heading>Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns



Authors: Bosch, E.
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; Calafell, F.
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; Gonz&aacute;lez-Neira, A.; Flaiz, C.; Mateu, E.
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; Scheil, H.-G.
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; Huckenbeck, W.
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; Efremovska, L.
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; Mikerezi, I.
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; Xirotiris, N.
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; Grasa, C.
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; Schmidt, H.
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; Comas, D.
Source: Annals of Human Genetics, Volume 70, Number 4, July 2006 , pp. 459-487(29)

Abstract:
Summary

The Balkan Peninsula is a complex cultural mosaic comprising populations speaking languages from several branches of the Indo-European family and Altaic, as well as culturally-defined minorities such as the Aromuns who speak a Romance language. The current cultural and linguistic landscape is a palimpsest in which different peoples have contributed their cultures in a historical succession. We have sought to find any evidence of genetic stratification related to those cultural layers by typing both mtDNA and Y chromosomes, in Albanians, Romanians, Macedonians, Greeks, and five Aromun populations. We have paid special attention to the Aromuns, and sought to test genetically various hypotheses on their origins.


MtDNA and Y-chromosome haplogroup frequencies in the Balkans were found to be similar to those elsewhere in Europe. MtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome STR haplotypes revealed decreased variation in some Aromun populations. Variation within Aromun populations was the primary source of genetic differentiation. Y-chromosome haplotypes tended to be shared across Aromuns, but not across non-Aromun populations. These results point to a possible common origin of the Aromuns, with drift acting to differentiate the separate Aromun communities. The homogeneity of Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out.
Keywords: Balkan Peninsula; mitochondrial DNA; Y chromosome; genetic variation; population genetics
Document Type: Research article
DOI: 10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x
Affiliations: 1: Unitat de Biologia Evolutiva, Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Spain 2: Institute of Human Genetics and Anthropology, Heinrich-Heine-University D&uuml;sseldorf, Germany 3: Institute of Legal Medicine, Heinrich-Heine-University D&uuml;sseldorf, Germany 4: Institute of Physiology, Medical Faculty Skopje, Republic of Macedonia 5: Faculty of Natural Science, University Tirana, Albania 6: Laboratory of Anthropology, Democritus University of Thrace, Komotini, Greece 7: University Ovidius, Constanta, Romania 8: Institute of Human Genetics and Anthropology, University of Ulm, Germany

 
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and Y chromosome haplogroups seem to be similar throughout Europe not just the balkans. 

Sponsored Links

[antonio]

Originally Posted by Prokomenos
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Your talking about this test?

[size=2]

Mtdna and Y chromosome haplogroups seem to be similar throughout Europe not just the balkans.

That is the 2006 study which I cited, and if you look at the raw data in Appendix III it was focused on samples from the Balkans (specifically Albania, FYROM, Greece, & Romania). My personal DNA markers were 3 times higher among Greeks than the other groups in that appendix.

No, I was referring to the 2004 study by Comas et al. entitled "ALU insertion polymorphisms in the Balkans and the origins of the Aromans" when I said I wasn't sure which ethnic groups were included in that earlier study.

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by half greek
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You know the word Vulgar comes from Bulgar, just tell them that and see what they say!

You know that the name Bulgar has given to Bulgarians by Byzantines?
When they appeared in the region , Byzantines placed them in towers-fortresses to the north borders of the empire,as tower guardians.



Pyrgos - Burg

[Arberia]

for Ellinas:

link:
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The Greeks
from C.S. Coon, The Races of Europe, Chapter XII, section 14

The title of this section is The Greeks, and not Greece, since from the mythical days of the Argonauts to the present, neither the peninsula of Hellas nor Ionia and the Aegean Islands have been large enough to hold the far-wandering Hellenes. Greek is a language and a civilization, the Greeks a people; the Greeks are the descendants of all the peoples who have adopted and retained that language and that civilization from classical times to the present. Some of these converts to Hellenicism were inhabitants of Asia Minor, others of Thrace and Byzantium, others of the lands bordering the Black Sea, especially the Crimea.

Into the peninsula of Greece itself, many thousands of Slavs wandered as immigrants during the maximum South Slavic expansion; the Turks brought colonists, including many Albanians, and whole districts of Boeotia and Attica and of other parts of Greece are today Albanian speaking. Romance-speaking shepherds, the Vlachs, have also made the slopes of the Pindus their seasonal pastures. Since the World War many of the Greeks living in Thrace and Asia Minor have been sent to Greek soil to live, while Turks and other Moslems have been in turn repatriated.

[Arberia]

Have the Greeks changed since antiquity?

Of course. The old aristocracy, responsible for much of the greatness of ancient Greece, certainly no longer exists. That, in itself, is a big enough change. Even the peasants have changed, though the exact degree to which the Greek goatherd of today is descended from the ancient Greek goatherd is an open question.

Everyone knows about the major Slavic and Albanian influxes into Greece. As Paul Theroux puts it:

The Greeks had not taken very much interest in their past until Europeans became enthusiastic discoverers and diggers of their ruins. And why should they have cared? The Greeks were not Greek, but rather the illiterate descendants of Slavs and Albanian fishermen, who spoke a debased Greek dialect and had little interest in the broken columns and temples except as places to graze their sheep. (Pillars of Hercules, 315-316)

Given the movement of large numbers of Greeks into Anatolia during the Byzantine era, and the movements of Albanians and Slavs into Greece, it is always possible that a given Turk has as much or more classical Greek ancestry as a given modern Greek. And, there is always the strong possibility of a Turkic contribution to the Greek gene pool.

There has been gene flow into Greece from from Negroids and Mongoloids (see below), the extent of which is not easy to quantify at this time. However, absorption of genes from the Near East and North Africa likely happened on a much larger scale than the absorption of non-Caucasoid genes; and this recent non-European Caucasoid admixture may be more significant than non-Caucasoid admixture when discussing changes in the racial character of the Greek nation. Richards et al. (2002) find a "very high frequency (~20%) of recent gene flow" in eastern Mediterranean Europe.

Sources

Angel, J. Lawrence. A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks: An essay on the use of morphological types. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Volume 2 N.S., Number 4. 1944.

Angel, J. Lawrence. Skeletal Material from Attica. Hesperia. Volume 14, Issue 4. The American Excavations in the Athenian Agora: Twenty-Seventh Report. Oct-Dec 1945. 279-363.

Angel, J. Lawrence. Human Skeletons from Grave Circles at Mycenae. In G. E. Mylonas (ed.). Ho Taphikos Kyklos B ton Mykenon [The Grave Circle B at Mycenae (Greek)] Volume I. Athens: Athenais Archaiologikes Etaireias, 1973. pp. 379-97.

Arnaiz-Villena et al. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27.

Astrinidis, A. and A. Kouvatsi. Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism in northern Greece. Hum Biol. 1994 Aug;66(4):601-11.

Baker, John R. Race. Oxford, London, 1974.

Barac et al. Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates. Eur J Hum Genet. 2003 Jul;11(7):535-42.

Buxton, L.H. Dudley and D. Talbot Rice. Report on the Human Remains found at Kish. Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland. Volume 61. Jan-Jun 1931. 57-119.

Clark, Edwin. The Roots of the White Man (Part I): A Reply to Jared Taylor. American Renaissance. Vol 7, No. 11. November, 1996.

Coon, Carleton S. The Greeks in The Races of Europe. Macmillan, New York, 1939.

Cruciani et al. Phylogeographic analysis of haplogroup e3b (e-m215) y chromosomes reveals multiple migratory events within and out of Africa. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May;74(5):1014-22. Epub 2004 Mar 24

Day, John V. In Quest of Our Linguistic Ancestors: The Elusive Origins of the Indo-Europeans. The Occidental Quarterly, Volume 2, Number 3. Fall 2002.

Di Benedetto et al. DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;115(2):144-56.

Di Giacomo et al. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. In Press.

Hall, Jonathan M. Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity. Cambridge, New York, Cambridge University Press, 1997.

Hamilton, W.D. Innate social aptitudes of man: an approach from evolutionary genetics. In R. Fox (ed.), Biosocial Anthropology. Malaby Press, London, 133-53. 1975.

Jacobs et al. Pitfalls in the Search for Ethnic Origins: a Cautionary Tale regarding the Construction of "Anthropological Types" in Pre-Indo-European Northeast Europe. In Jones-Bley and Huld (eds.), The Indo-Europeanization of Northern Europe. Washington, D.C.: Institute for the Study of Man, 1996.

Lundman, Bertil. The racial history of Europe: an outline in The Races and Peoples of Europe.

Murphy, John. Racial Crossing and Cultural Efflorescence. Man. Volume 41. Jan-Feb 1941.

Pearson, Roger. Some comments on Lynn's thesis by an anthropologist. Mankind Quarterly. Fall/Winter 1991. Vol. 32. Issue 1/2. p175.

Peterson, R. The Greek Face. The Journal of Indo-European Studies. Volume 2, Number 4. Winter, 1974. 385-406.

Richards et al. Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 2000 Nov;67(5):1251-76. Supplementary data.

Richards et al. In Search of Geographical Patterns in European Mitochondrial DNA. Am J Hum Genet 2002 Nov;71(5):1168-74.

Sanchez et al. Y-Chromosome analysis of the Somali population suggests the origin of the haplogroup E3b1. 2nd DNA POLYMORPHISMS IN HUMAN POPULATIONS International Symposium - Paris - December 5-6, 2003

Semino et al. Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of y-chromosome haplogroups e and j: inferences on the neolithization of europe and later migratory events in the mediterranean area. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May;74(5):1023-34. Epub 2004 Apr 06.

Simoni et al. Patterns of gene flow inferred from genetic distances in the Mediterranean region. Hum Biol. 1999 Jun;71(3):399-415.

Snowden, Frank M., Jr. Blacks in Antiquity: Ethiopians in the Greco-Roman experience. Cambridge. The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. 1970.

Tenzer, Lawrence R. How Do We Inherit Our Skin Color? from A Completely New Look At Interracial Sexuality.

Theroux, Paul. The Pillars of Hercules: A Grand Tour of The Mediterranean. G.P. 1995.

Webster, T.B.L. Athenian Culture and Society. Batsford, London, 1973.

[Arberia]

Now prove about Albanians what you claim? give me any source or anthropolog?

i have more to say but first give me your just 1 reference?

every historian-antropolog when study Albanians and Greeks in Greece all about Albanians said are very european looking while greeks clasified close to turkish/kurdish.

you greeks are not european.

your culture albanian/slavic and other more half is (caucasus, turkish, syrian and armenian)

[gmellos]

Originally Posted by Arberia
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Now prove about Albanians what you claim? give me any source or anthropolog?

i have more to say but first give me your just 1 reference?

every historian-antropolog when study Albanians and Greeks in Greece all about Albanians said are very european looking while greeks clasified close to turkish/kurdish.

you greeks are not european.

your culture albanian/slavic and other more half is (caucasus, turkish, syrian and armenian)

sure!! thank you for quoting various devalued genetic and historical studies such as Arnaiz-Villena! you just gain ABSOLUTLY ZERO credibility here buddy!

also you used a bunch of sources BUT never cited any of them!

[Prokomenos]

Originally Posted by Arberia
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Have the Greeks changed since antiquity?

Of course. The old aristocracy, responsible for much of the greatness of ancient Greece, certainly no longer exists. That, in itself, is a big enough change. Even the peasants have changed, though the exact degree to which the Greek goatherd of today is descended from the ancient Greek goatherd is an open question.

Everyone knows about the major Slavic and Albanian influxes into Greece. As Paul Theroux puts it:

The Greeks had not taken very much interest in their past until Europeans became enthusiastic discoverers and diggers of their ruins. And why should they have cared? The Greeks were not Greek, but rather the illiterate descendants of Slavs and Albanian fishermen, who spoke a debased Greek dialect and had little interest in the broken columns and temples except as places to graze their sheep. (Pillars of Hercules, 315-316)

Given the movement of large numbers of Greeks into Anatolia during the Byzantine era, and the movements of Albanians and Slavs into Greece, it is always possible that a given Turk has as much or more classical Greek ancestry as a given modern Greek. And, there is always the strong possibility of a Turkic contribution to the Greek gene pool.

There has been gene flow into Greece from from Negroids and Mongoloids (see below), the extent of which is not easy to quantify at this time. However, absorption of genes from the Near East and North Africa likely happened on a much larger scale than the absorption of non-Caucasoid genes; and this recent non-European Caucasoid admixture may be more significant than non-Caucasoid admixture when discussing changes in the racial character of the Greek nation. Richards et al. (2002) find a "very high frequency (~20%) of recent gene flow" in eastern Mediterranean Europe.

Why dont you quote who wrote this instead of throwing over 20 names of people and what they have written? You obviously cant do that because you have no idea what you are talking about lol. You are indeed a confused Mongol like your user title says. Let me help you a little bit with some of the authors that you have put down.

Originally Posted by Arberia

Angel, J. Lawrence. A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks: An essay on the use of morphological types. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Volume 2 N.S., Number 4. 1944.

Angel, J. Lawrence. Skeletal Material from Attica. Hesperia. Volume 14, Issue 4. The American Excavations in the Athenian Agora: Twenty-Seventh Report. Oct-Dec 1945. 279-363.

Angel, J. Lawrence. Human Skeletons from Grave Circles at Mycenae. In G. E. Mylonas (ed.). Ho Taphikos Kyklos B ton Mykenon [The Grave Circle B at Mycenae (Greek)] Volume I. Athens: Athenais Archaiologikes Etaireias, 1973. pp. 379-97.

You can read here about Angel, J. Lawrence.

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Originally Posted by Arberia

Arnaiz-Villena et al. HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks. Tissue Antigens. 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27.

Arnaiz Villena? Lol lets see what happen to his so called tests on the Greeks. You can view everything here
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At about the same time this study was published, its main author, Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, had a
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published in Nature, which was later dropped following criticism by three top men in the field of population genetics (
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). They rejected the conclusions Arnaiz-Villena drew based on the HLA DRB1 allele -- the same marker analyzed in the present study:

Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.

Note, however, that when analyzed properly even HLA genes, while not ideal markers for tracing ancestral relationships, demonstrate the affinity of Greeks to other Balkan and European peoples, as shown by two recent studies:

In the present study we analyzed for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by high-resolution typing methods.... Phylogenetic and correspondence analyses showed that Bulgarians are more closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians than to other European populations and Middle Eastern people living near the Mediterranean. (
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)

The present study is the first to be performed in Macedonia using high-resolution sequence-based method for direct HLA typing. ... A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree. (
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)

More importantly, this obvious affinity has been confirmed with the most up-do-date research on autosomal microsatellites. For example,
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used 182 loci (as opposed to Arnaiz-Villena's one) to group several world populations based on genetic distance. Their results reveal Greeks' distance from Africans, and closeness to Basques and other Europeans:



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Also note a new textbook written by geneticist Mark Jobling uses this very Arnaiz-Villena study as an example of shoddy research based on arbitrary interpretations. You can access relevant passages at
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Originally Posted by Arberia

Coon, Carleton S. The Greeks in The Races of Europe. Macmillan, New York, 1939.

Want to site Carleton S. Coon on the Greeks? Here is a nice passage:

Coon, Carleton S. The Races of Europe. MacMillan, 1939

"It is inaccurate to say that the modern Greeks are different physically from the ancient Greeks; such a statement is based on an ignorance of the Greek ethnic character.... The Greeks, in short, are a blend of [sub]racial types, of which two are most important: the Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine. Dinaricism here is present, but not all pervading; true Alpines are commoner than complete Dinarics. The Nordic element is weak, as it probably has been since the days of Homer. The racial type to which Socrates belonged [Alpine] is today the most important, while the Atlanto-Mediterranean, prominent in Greece since the Bronze Age, is still a major factor. It is my personal reaction to the living Greeks that their continuity with their ancestors of the ancient world is remarkable, rather than the opposite."

Originally Posted by Arberia

Di Giacomo et al. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution. In Press.

What about Di Giacomo? Read what he says you fool lol..

Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of Human Y chromosomal Diversity in Continental Italy and Greece Are Dominated by Drift and Founder Effects. Mol Phyl Evol (to appear)

In a sample of 366 Greeks from thirteen locations in continental Greece, Crete, Lesvos and Chios, a single African haplogroup A Y-chromosome was found (0.3%). This marks the only instance to date of sub-Saharan DNA being discovered in Greece. In another sample of 42 Greeks, one sequence of the Siberian Tat-C haplogroup turned up. Note that other studies with larger sample populations have failed to detect this paternal marker in the Greek gene pool (e.g.
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;
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), and that its frequencies are actually much higher in Scandinavian and Slavic populations.
(
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;

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)

Originally Posted by Arberia

Richards et al. Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. Am J Hum Genet 2000 Nov;67(5):1251-76. Supplementary data.
Richards et al. In Search of Geographical Patterns in European Mitochondrial DNA.

Richards? Lets see what he said..

In a sample of 125 Greeks from Thessaloniki and Sarakatsani, 2 Asian-specific mtDNA sequences (M and D) were detected (1.6%). No sub-Saharan African genes were observed in this population. Therefore, non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Greece is very low, as elsewhere in Europe.

Sanchez et al. Y-Chromosome analysis of the Somali population suggests the origin of the haplogroup E3b1. 2nd DNA POLYMORPHISMS IN HUMAN POPULATIONS International Symposium - Paris - December 5-6, 2003

Originally Posted by Arberia

Semino et al. Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of y-chromosome haplogroups e and j: inferences on the neolithization of europe and later migratory events in the mediterranean area. Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May;74(5):1023-34. Epub 2004 Apr 06.

Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum Genet; 74:1023-1034

A recent paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks possess none of the lineages denoting North African ancestry within the last 5000 years, and have only 2% (3/148) of the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.

Originally Posted by Arberia

Simoni et al. Patterns of gene flow inferred from genetic distances in the Mediterranean region. Hum Biol. 1999 Jun;71(3):399-415.

What did Simoni say fool? Lol

Simoni et al. (1999) Patterns of Gene Flow Inferred from Genetic Distances in the Mediterranean Region. Hum Biol; 71:399-415

An analysis of 10 autosomal allele frequencies in Southern Europeans (including Greeks, Cretans and other islanders) and various Middle Eastern and North African populations revealed a "line of sharp genetic change [that] runs from Gibraltar to Lebanon," which has divided the Mediterranean into distinct northern and southern clusters since at least the Neolithic period. The authors conclude that "gene flow was more the exception than the rule," attributing this result to "a joint product of initial geographic isolation and successive cultural divergence, leading to the origin of cultural barriers to population admixture.