Race or Culture?

[Therapon]

Inspired by the discussion about Greeks becoming extinct where a great deal of emphasis was placed on race. I wonder how people decide what constitutes being Greek?

Is there a difference between the concepts of race, nation and ethnicity?

How much a part does language play in any definition of nationality?

Does ones religious beliefs have a bearing on ethnicity or nationality?

[x300_spartans]

that an extremely difficult question Therapon...
first and foremost, imo, a direct line of Greek heritage is a major component of being a "Greek"...
-i wouldnt consider anyone to be Greek just because they can speak Greek ( omos, ellinika den milas, ellinas den eisai), know a few Greek songs, know some of our customs etc...


IMO, what makes a Greek a Greek consists a few things
- the love for the blood of great forefathers that runs through hearts and veins....

- the undying and unwaivering love for the the mountains, plains, valleys, rivers, beaches and lakes that stretch the left over rocks God has when he was creating the world...

- the knowledge, that when the time arises, you will be prepared to make a sacrifice for the good of our nation when it could effect you personally...

i dont think i answered you question as you might have wished for - i leave that for one of our intellectuals...

[Napalm]

1 Is there a difference between the concepts of race, nation and ethnicity?

2 How much a part does language play in any definition of nationality?

3 Does ones religious beliefs have a bearing on ethnicity or nationality?

1 YES.
I'll use my own country Canada as an example. Canadian is not a race it is a nationality. A chinese person, an anglo saxon person both call themselves Canadians but are different races. Maybe in the future all the race mixing might make one canadian race but not today. There is also a difference between ethncity and race. For example there is the "Black Race" which has difference tribes which could be labeled as ethnicities.

These terms are subjective though. I think the only scientific way to label the races & ethnicities is through DNA which can group peoples together.
An other difference i think is worth noting is that "country" is a relatively new term. In ancient times people lived in kingdoms, city states, etc when they exerted spheres of influence. It is not like today where there are exact lines on the map.

2. Large part
3. Yes. Islam changed the shape of the mid east countries.

[Prokomenos]

Originally Posted by Therapon
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Inspired by the discussion about Greeks becoming extinct where a great deal of emphasis was placed on race. I wonder how people decide what constitutes being Greek?

Is there a difference between the concepts of race, nation and ethnicity?

I know a Greek who can't speak a word of Greek, knows nothing about Greek history and don't even know what the capital of Greece is. To me he is not a Greek even though ethnically he is. Although race is a major component if one does not feel it then race to me is insignificant.

How much a part does language play in any definition of nationality?

It does not play a roll. Many Albanians speak Greek but they are still Albanian.

Does ones religious beliefs have a bearing on ethnicity or nationality?

When it comes down to being Greek the answer is no. Religion is not what makes us Greek because our ancient ancestors were not Christian but dodekatheists. Religion is more of a cultural factor within the Greek people.

[AEKARA]

Originally Posted by Prokomenos
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When it comes down to being Greek the answer is no. Religion is not what makes us Greek because our ancient ancestors were not Christian but dodekatheists. Religion is more of a cultural factor within the Greek people.

Prokomenos - I agree with this. However it is interesting to note that due to the power and influence of the Greek Orthodox Church - if you are not Orthodox (or perhaps more generally Christian) then traditionally you are not viewed as a Greek.

Look at the descendants of Cretan Greeks who converted to Islam, or the Greek Muslim communities in Lebanon. They are Greeks. Are proud of their Greek heritage, but as they are Muslims - they are not recognised as Greeks by the Greek Government.

Amazingly - figures put the number of Greeks in Turkkey who are Muslim at anything between 50,000 to over 200,000.

So this is a challange that faces Greece today. With all the migrants coming in. Do we recognise these people and their children as Greek?

I beleive we should - HOWEVER we need to restrict the migration coming in. I beleive it should be no more then 5 - 10% of the population.

Or it will become like areas of Australia (and Im sure America and Canada) where we go to areas and barely spot a single Australian.

I went to an area of Sydney yesterday to do some shopping. 20 years ago - most of the people were Anglo Saxons Aussies. Today - its full of Muslims, Africans, Pakistanis, Indians. Forget spotting the Aussie - your hard pressed to spot a European.

This is how Greece will become unless we take action now.

[Prokomenos]

Originally Posted by AEKARA
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Prokomenos - I agree with this. However it is interesting to note that due to the power and influence of the Greek Orthodox Church - if you are not Orthodox (or perhaps more generally Christian) then traditionally you are not viewed as a Greek.

Look at the descendants of Cretan Greeks who converted to Islam, or the Greek Muslim communities in Lebanon. They are Greeks. Are proud of their Greek heritage, but as they are Muslims - they are not recognised as Greeks by the Greek Government.

Amazingly - figures put the number of Greeks in Turkkey who are Muslim at anything between 50,000 to over 200,000.

So this is a challange that faces Greece today. With all the migrants coming in. Do we recognise these people and their children as Greek?

Migrants that enter Greece and are not of Greek ethnicity are not Greek and obviously have no right to call themselves Greek. Only communists and liberals that don't care about Greece's culture and ethinicity to be destroyed would think otherwise. Greece is not like America or Australia that was build by different nationalities ect.

As for Greek muslims ethnically they might be Greek but culturaly no and technically they are an enemy. An enemy because Islam preaches that non Muslims are infidels and if anyone says Im wrong then they are really being ignorant.

[AEKARA]

Originally Posted by Prokomenos
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Migrants that enter Greece and are not of Greek ethnicity are not Greek and obviously have no right to call themselves Greek. Only communists and liberals that don't care about Greece's culture and ethinicity to be destroyed would think otherwise. Greece is not like America or Australia that was build by different nationalities ect.

As for Greek muslims ethnically they might be Greek but culturaly no and technically they are an enemy. An enemy because Islam preaches that non Muslims are infidels and if anyone says Im wrong then they are really being ignorant.

Prokomenos - Technically I think the bigger issue is the restriction of migrants. Even if the Greek Government doesnt give them citizenship - they will make up a huge part of the population and destabilise the area.

There was an interesting documentary here in Australia abotu Islam in Greece. It said on current rates of Muslim Migration to Greece - in about 15 years over 20% of the country will be Muslim.

Scary stuff.

[Prokomenos]

Originally Posted by AEKARA
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Prokomenos - Technically I think the bigger issue is the restriction of migrants. Even if the Greek Government doesnt give them citizenship - they will make up a huge part of the population and destabilise the area.

There was an interesting documentary here in Australia abotu Islam in Greece. It said on current rates of Muslim Migration to Greece - in about 15 years over 20% of the country will be Muslim.

Scary stuff.

Yes it is scary and we can thank the Greek government and those Greeks that continue to support those politicians.

Their is nothing that you, I and a handful of Greeks can do about that.
If the Greeks in Greece don't act which they wont Greece will be full of muslims. Everything our ancestors fought and died for is being pissed on.

[AEKARA]

Originally Posted by Prokomenos
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Yes it is scary and we can thank the Greek government and those Greeks that continue to support those politicians.

Their is nothing that you, I and a handful of Greeks can do about that.
If the Greeks in Greece don't act which they wont Greece will be full of muslims. Everything our ancestors fought and died for is being pissed on.

Perhaps some of these idiot politicians should read Diakos' words when the Turks offered him the rank of an officer in the Turkish Army and to convert to Islam:

"Ellinas yenihtika kai Eliinas tha pethano"

Imagine the shock these heroes would receive if they were to see Greece today and see the country becoming the very thing they fought so hard for it not to become.

[sterg]

Originally Posted by AEKARA
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Perhaps some of these idiot politicians should read Diakos' words when the Turks offered him the rank of an officer in the Turkish Army and to convert to Islam:

"Ellinas yenihtika kai Eliinas tha pethano"

Imagine the shock these heroes would receive if they were to see Greece today and see the country becoming the very thing they fought so hard for it not to become.

I Agree.

The severely wounded Diakos was taken before Vryonis[Need quotation on talk to verify], who offered to make him an officer in the Ottoman army if he converted from Christianity to Islam. Diakos refused the offer, replying "I was born a Greek, I shall die a Greek" ("Εγώ Γραικός γεννήθηκα, Γραικός θε να πεθάνω" transliterated as: Ego Graikos yennithika, Graikos the na pethano). The next day he was impaled. According to popular tradition, as he was being led away to be executed, he said:

Look at the time Charon chose to take me, now that the branches are flowering, and the earth sends forth grass (Greek: Για δες καιρό που διάλεξε ο Χάρος να με πάρει, τώρα π' ανθίζουν τα κλαριά και βγάνει η γης χορτάρι - Ya thes kero pou dialexe o Haros na me parei, tora p' anthizoun ta klaria kai vganei i yis hortari).

This was a metaphor for the independence and freedom of Greece.

The brutal manner[Need quotation on talk to verify] of Diakos's death initially struck fear into the populace of Roumeli, but his final stand near Thermopylae, echoing the heroic defence of the Spartan King Leonidas, made him a martyr for the Greek cause. A monument now stands at the bridge near Alamana, the site of his final battle. His birthplace, the village of Ano Mousounitsa, was later renamed Athanasios Diakos in his honour. Also streets and statues in several parts of Greece as well as nearly every larger towns and cities bears his name.