Skopjiani and their propaganda on our Macedonia

[Prokomenos]

Im sure most of you know about the Skopjiani and their absurd claims on our ancestors history. Well here is a good article that pretty much sums it up its basic and straight to point. It also refutes the Skopjiani claims on a so call genetic test they conducted on Greeks trying to discredit us but obviously it backfired on them. You should all read this.

Another good article from
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FYROM and their Propaganda against Greece

F.Y.R.O.M ( Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia) or also known as Socialist Republic of Macedonia and as Skopjia was created during WW2 by a communist dictator by the name of Tito. The name was given to them in the Southern Yugoslavia providence in order to claim Greek and Bulgarian territory. Before WW2 FYROM was called Vardaska. Another point of interest is the part of Macedonia that they occupy is not the part of Macedonia that the Greeks have and still live on from the past thousands of years. All major archeological discoveries have been made in the Greek Macedonia territory proving over and over again that ancient Macedonians were Greek. To top it all Slavs entered the region by the 6th century A.D. long after ancient Macedonia was homogenized with the rest of Greece! That alone proves they have no relation whatsoever! They only occupy 25% of the region as well. They do not have the right to make such claims on her. In fact here are some quotes that some important FYROM individuals said throughout the years.

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century (A.D)."
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)


24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."
The official web site of the president of FYROM states clearly that these people came to Macedonia at the end 10th century:

"The beginnings of the statehood of the Macedonian Slaves go back to the end of the 10th century and beginning of the 11t, with the creation of Samoil's state."
Link:
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The following:A State Department Letter to Consular Officers of U.S.A

U.S STATE DEPARTMENT
Foreign Relations Vol. VIII
Washington D.C.
Circular Airgram
(868.014/26 Dec. 1944)

The Secretary of State to Certain Diplomatic and Consular Officers*
The following is for your information and general guidance, but not for any positive action at this time.

The Department has noted with considerable apprehension increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. "This Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece".

The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of "Macedonian Forces" against Greece.
The Department would appreciate any information pertinent to this subject which may come to your attention.
Secretary of State

STETTINIUS

Read more on next post.

[Prokomenos]

FYROM's population consists of 60% Slavs who are mostly of Bulgarian or Serbian origin, 30% Albanians, and small groups consisting of Greeks, Turks and some others. Some of these individuals actually believe they are descendants of the Greek Macedonians which is false because the Bulgarians appeared in Europe around 650 A.D. and they were a Turkic tribe of nomads that is way after the existence of Ancient Greek Macedonians. They go as far as creating websites, forums to personally attack Greece and her people by promoting racist articles from well known racist individuals such as Arthur Kemp and his book March of the Titans example here
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These individuals promote afro centrists theories as well. They have even gone as far as paying scientist such as Arnaiz Villena and of course by adding FYROM scientists to conduct a so called Greek Genetic test. The results were considered absurd by well respected scientists throughout the world and their tests were dropped. Also notice a few of the scientists who conducted the so called test are from FYROM! Something smells fishy dont you think?

HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkosvka V, Martinez-Lazo J
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain.
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HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.

The fact of the matter was that the results were proven to be wrong:
CLARIFICATION:

At about the same time this study was published, its main author, Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, had a similar HLA study published in Nature, which was later dropped following criticism by three top men in the field of population genetics (
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). They rejected the conclusions Arnaiz-Villena drew based on the HLA DRB1 allele -- the same marker analyzed in the present study:

Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.

In the present study we analyzed for the first time HLA class I and class II polymorphisms defined by high-resolution typing methods.... Phylogenetic and correspondence analyses showed that Bulgarians are more closely related to Macedonians, Greeks, and Romanians than to other European populations and Middle Eastern people living near the Mediterranean. (
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)

The present study is the first to be performed in Macedonia using high-resolution sequence-based method for direct HLA typing. ... A phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, Turks and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree. (
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) View original source here:
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Also you can visit here at
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(Note that they are in direct co-operation with "My Family Tree DNA")

Source for the above is 2003 Di Giacomo et. al

Although the test dont by Arnaiz Villena and scientists from F.Y.R.O.M had been discredited and basically not valid they continue to use that information to promote their anti Greek propaganda by discrediting us from having any relation to our ancient Greek Macedonian ancestry. Also Arnaiz Villena was fingered for committing embezzlement see below:

"the health ministry's Social Security Investigation Group---a police body---estimates the fraud may mean the hospital has lost 860000 (£531000; $756000) over the past five years. The final figure may reach 3.9m"

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Arnaiz Villena was taken to court for embezzlement charges for the unauthorized use of laboratory and immunological items. Which proves one thing that paper was politically motivated.

A example of such an disillusioned individual is a F.Y.R.O.M individual by the name of Risto Stefov at MAKnews.com. He and his co workers continuously write anti Greek propaganda on their website. They also have a forum and if a Greek states his opinion and facts they automatically ban the individual because they know that the truth hurts. When will this nonsense end? How much more truth and facts do people need inorder to wake up!

Keep reading below...

[Prokomenos]

The truth about Macedonia

What was the Macedonian form of government?

The Macedonian State was a kingdom. The form of government reminded that found in Iliad and Odyssey. The rule of the Macedonian king was not absolute and his 'hetairoi', as the Macedonian soldiers were called, were consulting the king sometimes quite vociferously. It was not uncommon even for Alexander the Great to have to convince his Macedonian soldiers for his future actions and to request their approval. The institution of 'hetairoi' had its roots in Homer

(Iliad D 204, 532, E 663, Z 170,260) where the Myrmidon soldiers of Achilles were called so.

What did ancient Greek writers write about Macedonia?

Aeschylus (Iketidai, 250) and Herodotus (V 22) believed that Macedonians were Dorian Greeks. Herodotos claimed that the Macedonians (called at that time Makednoi) who moved to Peloponnesos from Doris were later called Dorians.

[The English translation of the works by Herodotus we use is due to A. D. Godley and published by Harvard University Press in the US, and Willian Heineman Ltd in Great Britain as part of the Loeb Classical Library]

In Herodotus Book I, 56 (page 53) it is mentioned "These races, Ionian and Dorian, were the foremost in ancient time, the first a Pelasgian and the second an Hellenic people. The Pelasgian stock has never yet left its habitation, the Hellenic has wandered often and afar. For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then in the time of Dorus son of Hellen the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus; driven by the Cadmeans from this Histiaean country it settled about Pindus in the parts

called Macednian; thence again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia to Peloponnesos, where it took the name of Dorian".

Elsewhere, VIII-43 (referring to the naval battle in Salamis) Herodotos wrote:

"The Peloponnesians that were with the fleet were, firstly, the Lacedaemonians, with sixteen ships, and the Corinthians with the same number of ships as at Atemisium; the Sicyonians furnished fifteen, the Epidaurians ten, the Troezinians five, the people

of Hermione three; all these, except the people of Hermione were of Dorian and Macedonian stock, and had last come from Erineus and Pindus and the Dryopian region. The people of Hermione are Dryopians, driven by Heracles and the Malians from the country now called Doris.".In another passage Herodotos described how the Macedonian state had been founded (VIII,136-138).

There is one passage in Thucydides that describees the Molossians and other Epeirotian tribes among the 'barbarians'. It was proved following the excavations in Epeiros in 1950-1960 that the Molossians and other Epeirotian tribes were Greek, speaking Greek, and writing in Greek well before Thucydides' time. Thus Thucydides was wrong for these tribes. He was also wrong if he claimed, as some translators allege, that Macedonians had not been a greek tribe. Thucydides had also accused the Eurytanes, another Greek tribe, of being barbarians for their bad and improper use of the greek language and their aboriginal customs. The misinterpreted passage of Thucydides is given below.

In Thucydides IV,124,1 (Loeb edition by C.F. Smith) the following passage appeared.

"The total hellenic force was about three thousand; the cavalry that went with them, Macedonians and Chalcidians, were all told a little less than one thousand, and there was besides a great multitude of barbarians".

[In Gk: "MAKEDONVN JYN XALKIDEYSIN OLIGVN ES XILIOYS, KAI ALLOS

OMILOS TVN BARBARVN POLYS"]

This passage is sometimes misinterpreted so that Macedonians and Chalcidians for that matter appear to be considered barbarians by Thucydides. That this is not so can follow from an analysis of this passage. First, no one ever considered the Chalcidians, whose number is added to that of Macedonians, barbarians. Second, Thucydides distinguishes Macedonians and Chalcidians on the one hand and barbarians on the other by using the adjective few (Gk: OLIGVN) for the former and many for the latter (Gk:POLY).

These two adjective clearly indicate a contradistinction.

Euripides lived many years and died in Macedonia. Many of his tragedies were written and played while he was in Macedonia. This would have been impossible, had the Macedonians been 'barbarians' (non-Greek). This is because in one of these tragedies, 'Iphigeneia in Aulis', the Greek superiority over the barbarians is emphasized. The following epigram in memory of Euripides which is attributed by some authors to Thucydides may give us more light to the actual beliefs of the people of that

time (and possibly Thucydides)

"MNHMA MEN ELLAS APAS' EYRIPIDOU, OSTEA D' ISXEI GH MAKEDVN, H GAR DEJATO TERMA BIOU".

In brief, Macedonia, the land that holds the bones of Euripides is considered part of Greece.

Polyvios (VII 11,4, V 103,9, XVIII, XXXiV 7,13 , VII 9,1 IX 37,7) clearly stated his belief that Macedonia was greek, part of Greece, and considered Achaeans and Macedonians of the same race. The same beliefs were shared by Strabo as well as Titus Livius,

to name a few other writers. It is also interesting to note that Polyvios describing the Balkan Peninsula he says that it includes Greece, Illyria and Thrace. One can thus deduce that he includes Macedonia in Greece. Had he not done so, he could have listed her separately.

Plutarchos(Flam. XI) describes Titus Contus Flamininus during the Isthmia celebrations claimed that Macedonia prevented barbarian barbarian attacks against Southern Greece. Arrhianos' work is full of references to "Macedonia and the other

Greece".

In all reality their are many Skopjians who claim that they are decended from Alexander the Great is absurd. I personally met a woman by the name of Anastija who actually told me this herself and gave me permission to put what she said. She has also told me that many feel the way she does and its just the fanatics who think otherwise.

" Many of our people have brainwashed into believing this (that they are Macedonian). I know that we in no way have any connection to the kingdom of Macedon. At times I still dont know what I am. I have learned to live with this. " Anastija

I think this alone should close this case.

As I said this is a very good article which reveals their lies on their claims on our history. As Greeks we all must step up to the plate and combat proganda against our history and everything we stand for. We owe it to our ancestors who fought and died for everything we have today.


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[MarinaEllas]

Prokomenos mou kai aftoi anthropoi einai Skopjiani den xeroune kalhtera den vlepeis ti ginetai me tin xwra tous
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[Psaltis]

Δεν τους παω για τιποτα. Αστους να φωναζουν σαν τον κοκαρα, αυτοι οι ανθροποι ειναι φαντασμενη.

Edit: Πρόσεχε τις εκφράσεις σου!

[Dzidzo]

This i'snt true.When Slavs came here they mized with the ancient Macedonians.Now we are mixture, but still we are MACEDONIANS, just as Alexandar and Philip Macedonian were.And nothing you will say won't change that.Your so called "evidences" that are made up by yourself are noting to prove.Sooner or later you will state us as "Macedonia"

[Ellinas]

Originally Posted by Dzidzo
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This i'snt true.When Slavs came here they mized with the ancient Macedonians.Now we are mixture, but still we are MACEDONIANS, just as Alexandar and Philip Macedonian were.And nothing you will say won't change that.Your so called "evidences" that are made up by yourself are noting to prove.Sooner or later you will state us as "Macedonia"

And what about the 2.5 million Hellenic Macedonians who live n Macedonia? Are they going to change their name?
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Just because some Slavs were mixed with a small part of them means they have the right to take their identity?

[Prokomenos]

Originally Posted by Dzidzo
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This i'snt true.When Slavs came here they mized with the ancient Macedonians.Now we are mixture, but still we are MACEDONIANS, just as Alexandar and Philip Macedonian were.And nothing you will say won't change that.Your so called "evidences" that are made up by yourself are noting to prove.Sooner or later you will state us as "Macedonia"

Lol yeah ok their buddy. So if some Greeks mixed with Germans we can claim everything thats German? I dont think so. The evidence that we have is nothing but historical and modern facts. We dont have to make up anything because everything is the truth.

You and your people are the ones out their rewritting texts, making up story's, faking genetic research and much more. Your people have been figured out to be nothing but a joke. You and your people have been exposed. Just remember one thing..

Only Greeks are Macedonian!

[Angelo]

Originally Posted by Dzidzo
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This i'snt true.When Slavs came here they mized with the ancient Macedonians.Now we are mixture, but still we are MACEDONIANS, just as Alexandar and Philip Macedonian were.And nothing you will say won't change that.Your so called "evidences" that are made up by yourself are noting to prove.Sooner or later you will state us as "Macedonia"

The day we state you guys as Maceodonia is the day pigs will fly
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The word Macedonia is Greek,macedonians are Greek always remember this.

You talk about evidence,we have plenty not like we need to have any.

Were is your evidence?

My advise to your country is to wake up, create jobs for its people and fixe your country up

to join E.U .

You guys should also forget about your so -called Aegean Macedonia,this will never

happen.

[makarid]

Αυτο το πραγμα εχει αρχισει να με εκνευριζει.Εχουν κανει μια απιστευτι προπαγανδα οι Σκοπιανοι.Αλλα δεν φταινε μονο αυτοι φταιμε και εμεις που δεν ξερουμε τι μας γινεται δε αθτο το θεμα.Εχω ρωτησει πολλους γνωστους για αυτο το θεμα και ειμαι εκπλικτος απο αθτα που εχω ακουσει.ΔΕΝ τους ΕΝΔΙΑΦΕΡΕΙ καθολου αυτο το θεμα και μαλιστα το εντιπωσιακο ειναι οτι μερικοι λενε(περισσοτερο κοριτσια!) οτι αυτοι ειναι Μακεδονες.Ο Χριστος και η Παναγια τι εχω ακουσει.Εκεινη την στιγμη ημουν ετοιμος να τους πλακωσω στο ξυλο.Εμεις
οι νεοι δεν ξερουμε και πολλα απο ιστορια και ντρεπομαι για αυτο.Παντα υπαρχουν εξερεσεις ενωειται.