The roots of our Hellenic Language

[Prokomenos]

Good post half greek. Very interesting indeed.

[Angelo]

Originally Posted by half greek
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The Truth must be told

History should be rewritten

All false myths will now fall

Fact 1: The Alphabet is a Hellenic invention



Why certain historians made such a gross mistake?

"Αταλαίπωρος τοις πολλοις η ζήτησις της αληθείας και επί τα έτοιμα μάλλον τρέπονται" (Thucidedes 1.20,3)

Every Phoenician advocate is of course referring, without examining history from a broader perspective, to the well known story of Herodotus regarding the transfer of the letters of the alphabet from Cadmus and the Phoenicians to Hellas (Terpsichore, 58). In particular in that single part Herodotus mentions " The Phoenicians, I think, brought teachings to the Greeks and the letters they (Phoenicians) had before them (Greeks)".

Many historians have used the above passage as unquestionable dogma and it is bizarre how academics do not examine opposing views, so prevalent in ancient literature. To analyse this further we have to look to the original text where Herodotus himself states the above with some hesitance mentioning "ως εμοί δοκεί". The verb δοκεί means I think or, I hypothesize, or in the every day language "it looks like to me that...".

In contrast to "ως εμοί δοκεί", when Herodotus is certain for something he uses the phrase "ως εμοι καταφαίνεται είναι", which can be translated as "it is pretty clear, or it is obvious". For example he says: "Το δέ Ελληνικόν, γλώσσην μέν, επείτε εγένετο, αεί κοτε τή αυτή διαχράται, ώς εμοί καταφαίνεται είναι".

Credible scientist have long rejected the theories regarding the origin of the Hellenic Alphabet from the Phoenicians. Some of them are Auguste François Victor Jardé (in La Formation du Peuple Grec, Paris 1923, pg. 215), and the French philosopher Dussaut when in 1905 he postulated that the Phoenicians received the alphabet from the Cretans, and not that the Greeks received it from the Phoenicians. He further states that the Boioteans first placed the letter alpha sideways resembling the bull's head.

Dussaut's theorem is also supported by Evans who states in his book Scripta based on the similarity between the linear writing of the Cretans and the letters of the Phoenician alphabet that letters were transferred to Phoenicia and Palestine before or around 1300 BC by the immigrants Philistines (note the similarity between Philistine and Palestine!). Plutarch, furthermore, in his Symposiaka (Book Theta, problem B ) explains how the pronunciation of alpha derived from the prehistoric phonation of aaa! and not from the Phoenician aleph, and that first the Boioteans, as mentioned earlier, gave birth to the letter alpha when they placed the cow's head on its right.

Regarding Cadmus and his origin

Regarding Cadmus he was not of course of foreign origin, but an Hellene, returning from Phoenicia to Greece. It is well known from historical documentation that Phoenicia was formed from Greek immigrants in older times. If he was a foreigner his family would not be mentioned by Pindar in his Epinikeioi.

A similar example is that of Danaos, who returned from Egypt to Greece; all these have happened in older times before the Phoenicians were ever formed as a tribe. Diodorus Siculus is very illuminating regarding this matter, and in his book E (57) he states: "Aktis (son of Helios1 ) started his trip from Rhodes to Egypt and there he built Heliopolis, naming it after his father.” Even the most ignorant seeker of true historical facts will understand that it is a bizarre fact that one of the major ancient Egyptian cities would have a Hellenic name!!! “It was he, who taught the Egyptians the laws of astronomy. And when the flood came in Greece and most men died, the written archives were lost as well. And the Egyptians found the perfect chance to make the laws of astronomy and astrology their own. And since the Greeks because of (necessary) ignorance could not prove anything from a written source, the prevailed view was that the Egyptians discovered the laws of the stars. For these reasons, and these reasons only, many generations later Cadmo(u)s, the son of Aginoros was thought that he was the first to bring the letters back to Greece from Phoenicia.”

The main reason for confusion is caused due to the way the Greeks, even today, address other Greeks that lived for a long time outside Greece. The Greeks that were living from ancient times in Asia Minor before they were chased away by Turkey in the early 1900s are still today referred to as "Minor Asians" ("Μικρασιάτες"). Other Greeks that came back from Russia and in particular Efxinos Pontos (Black Sea) are today known as "Russian Pontians" ("Ρωσοπόντιοι") after they settled back in Macedonia. Although, there is no confusion among locals as to whether these people are Greek or not, much confusion results in the mind of a foreigner who listening to the names will believe that the above groups are not of Hellenic blood, but of Turkish and Russian respectively. For this exact reason Cadmus was originally thought that he was of Phoenician origin, whereas all above evidence points out that he was of Hellenic blood.

Evidence in Plato

Plato, well known to us and earlier than Diodorus in his dialogues Timaeus presents Kritias telling a story that he has heard from his grandfather regarding Solon, who has visited Egypt. Solon met a High Priest at Sais, who said to him: "In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven." (Plato Timaeus III,23). And then he continues: "You are welcome to hear about them, Solon, said the priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. She founded your city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Gaia and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old. As touching your citizens of nine thousand years ago, I will briefly inform you of their laws and of their most famous action; the exact particulars of the whole we will hereafter go through at our leisure in the sacred registers themselves. If you compare these very laws with ours you will find that many of ours are the counterpart of yours as they were in the olden time."

Evidence from other ancient historians

It is obvious from the above information form Plato and Diodoros that the ancient Hellenes knew how to write and had the greatest of civilizations and it was them who transferred the knowledge to Egypt on their migration there, and not the other way around. Maybe we should add that Diodorus Siculus informs us that the letters have a divine origin, since they were given tio the Muses by Zeus Himself, and then the Muses gave them to men. Diodorus is writing (Book E, 74) "To the Muses it was given by their father (Zeus) the invention of letters and the combination of the words for the creation of poetry". He then continues regarding those who claim that the alphabet is of Phoenician origin: "the Phoenicians were not the first who invented the letters, but they simply changed the form of the letters". And then he continues (Book E, 78) "Minos established many laws at Crete, claiming that he received them from his father Zeus, with whom he was meeting inside a cave and was having discussions" It is then fairly simple to understand that the existence of laws among the Cretans from the very ancient of times, and therefore the existence of writing was proven by the archeological research and the finding of Linear A and B writing.

But the fact that the knowledge of writing existed among the Hellenes from the most ancient of times, long before the Phoenicians have made an appearance as a tribe is also the result of the ancient reports and information we have about the golden age of Kronos, king of the prehistoric Hellenes of the West. It was He that organized his subjects into a society, he set laws and set order and justice everywhere. One may easily comprehend that such actions can only be the by-product of writing. Diodorus Sicelus is writing again about Kronos, of Cretan origin “So, Kronos as him being the eldest became a king and made his subjects from savages civilized, and that is why everyone is accepting him, and he visited many places of the world. And wherever he went, he established justice and truth of sendiments. That is why the people of the era of Kronos were, according to tradition, kind, benevolent and happy. His kingdom was in basis in the west, where he received great honours. That is why, until the latest years Romans and Karchidoneans-when Karchidon existed- and other neighbour races were celebrating him in a big way and they held sacrifices for the honour of this God and many places were named after him. And with this outstanding obedience to the laws there was no crime at all, and all the subjects were living a happy life and were enjoying all the goods" (Historic Bookcase Book E, 66). It is fairly simple to understand that writing is necessary to establish laws into a society. Diodorus furthermore points out that Kronos (Saturn) was honoured by the Karchidoneans, obviously due to the them receiving the civilization by Him and everything associated with that, including the alphabet.

Diodorus Sicelus further illuminates us regarding the origin of alphabet as he probably had some surviving sections of the “Iera Anagrafi” of Euhmeros. The priests of Pagaia that were claiming Cretan origin and that they came with Zeus “were demonstaring inscriptions that confirmed those things that Zeus has done while he was still among the people" (Diodor. Sikel. Historic Bookcase E, 46).

The famous German Hermann Diltz / Dils in his biggest work “Presocratics” and his article regarding Orpheus claims that the ancient Greeks and Orpheans not only knew how to write but they were recording their observations and thoughts onto thin pieces of wood, that were copied to new pieces due to being erased by time, and when finally recorded by Peisistratos and Ipparxos, these texts on wood were left as unusable (Orphika by Ioannis Passas p 43).



Modern evidence regarding the origin of the Hellenic alphabet

The old (first) palace was built in around 2000 B.C. but it was completely destroyed by an earthquake in 1700 B.C. The new (second) palace, more complex in plan, strongly resembling a labyrinth, was constructed immediately afterwards. In the middle of the 15th century B.C. the Achaeans from the Greek Mainland conquered the island of Crete and settled at the palace of Knossos. They used the Greek language, as is indicated by the clay tablets they left, written in the Linear B script. The palace was again destroyed by fire in the mid-14th century B.C. (LM IIIA period) and ceased to function as a palatial centre.

Despite such a non-descriptive name, Linear B proved to be the oldest surviving record of the Greek dialect known as Mycenaean, named after the great site of Mycenae where the legendary Agamemnon ruled. The script's usage spanned the time period between approximately 1500 BCE and 1200 BCE , and geographically covered the island of Crete, as well as the southern part of the Greek Mainland.

Crete was the cradle of the Minoan Civilization, which spanned roughly from 2000 BCE to 1200 BCE. In addition to incredible frescoes, and indoor plumbing (!), the Minoans also developed the first written system of Europe. The oldest example of writing in Crete is a kind of "hieroglyphic" (which means that the signs are picture-like) script. The media where the hieroglyphic inscriptions appeared are mostly clay seal stones. The origin of the Cretan writing system lies in the extensive use of engraved seal stones, which depict physical objects, to (possibly) record quantities of these objects in soft clay. This forms a natural progression to a systematic writing system. As time progresses hieroglyphic system became more stylized and more linear. Instead of impressing seal stones in soft clay, the glyphs are incised on the soft clay with a stylus. In addition, quantities are represented by numerals (not multiple impressions of the same sign). As time goes on, it appears that the linear hieroglyphic system evolved into Linear A.

Linear A has roughly 90 symbols, thus most likely a syllabary much like Linear B. However, Linear A has resisted all attempts at decipherment because its underlying language is still unknown and probably will remain obscure since it doesn't seem to relate to any other surviving language in Europe or Western Asia. Linear B and Cypriot both exhibit considerable similarity to Linear A. Because of its time depth, Linear A appears to be the immediate ancestor to both of these writing systems. The hieroglyphic script appears only on seal stones and has yet to be deciphered. Linear A, also undeciphered, is thought to have evolved from the hieroglyphic script, and Linear B probably evolved from Linear A, though the relationship between the two scripts is unclear.

Evans figured out that short lines in Linear B texts were word dividers. He also deciphered the counting system and a number of pictograms, which led him to believe that the script was mainly pictographic. Evans also discovered a number of parallels between the Cypriot script, which had been deciphered, and Linear B. This indicated that the language represented by Linear B was an ancient form of Greek, but he wasn't prepared to accept this, being convinced that Linear B was used to write Minoan, a language unrelated to Greek.

In 1939, a large number of clay tablets inscribed with Linear B writing were found at Pylos on the Greek mainland, much to the surprise of Evans, who thought Linear B was used only on Crete. Michalis Ventris (1922-56) was the person who eventually deciphered Linear B in 1953. His interest was sparked in 1936 on a school trip to an exhibition about the Minoan world organised by Arthur Evans. For the next 17 years, Ventris struggled to understand Linear B. At first he was sceptical that the language of Linear B was Greek, even though many of the deciphered words resembled an archaic form of Greek. Later, with the help of John Chadwick, an expert on early Greek, he showed beyond reasonable doubt the Linear B did indeed represent Greek.





1: Helios: Greek name for Sun

© HellasEpsilon 2005 - We are back!


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Excellent post Half Greek bravo megale

When i was younger i was reading alot of ancient greek history,your post is 100% true.

[half greek]

Fact 3: The Hellenic is the oldest known language recorded.

FINDINGS BEARING HELLENIC LETTERS 14000 BC
which were discovered in several locations of Europe and mainly in southern France.


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Stone pebbles of the Magdalenean Era (14,000 B.C. approx.)
and the French Glozel plate. Many letters of the Hellenic alphabet
can be clearly discerned such as Θ ,Ξ , Μ , Φ , Ε , Π , Τ , Λ etc.

Sources : the books" MYSTERIES FROM FORGOTTEN WORLDS" by Charles Berlitz, Greek 'Orora' publications, and "OMFALOS"
by Athanasios Aggelopoulos, Greek 'Smyrniotakis' publications

From
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Greek letters like "M" and "Y" were found in an ancient Hellenic city in the bottom of the ocean in India. This is dated from 7500 BC.


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Read more about it here (in Greek)
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Hellenic alphabet was in use at 6000 B.C.


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An article by Pan.Kouvalakis published in "Davlos" magazine

The potsherd of 5500-6000 BC, found at the islet Yura of Northern Sporades bearing Greek alphabet letters. The facsimile to the classic Greek letters Alpha (A), Ypsilon (Y) and Delta (Δ) can be recognized. This finding proves that the classic Greek alphabet is older than the Greek linear alphabets. It also demolishes crushingly and definitely the false theory that Greeks took the alphabet from the Phoenicians, who emerged in history around 1150 BC, i.e. 4500-5000 years after the creation of the Yura written potsherd.

After the discovery of a wooden plate at Dispilion Kastoria, which was dated at 5300 BC, a new impressive discovery came to light, concerning the "prehistorical" alphabet in the Greek region. In the "Cyclop cave" at the desert islet Yura of Northern Sporades (20 miles out of Alonissos) ceramic fragments of written pots (potsherds) were excavated, upon the surface of which have been carved symbols facsimile with the letters of the classic Greek alphabet. The potsherds are dated between 6000 and 5500 BC.



The discovery at the cave in question, is conducted by the archaeologist Adamantios Sampson since 1992 and according to him: "besides the ceramics of the Later Neolithic, we have discovered written potsherds of exceptional quality dated at the end of Early Neolithic and at the beginning of Middle Neolithic. The aceramic layer was dated between 6445 and 6375 BC with the radioactive carbon method, while the layers of the Middle and Early Neolithic (among which are the potsherds) were dated between 6025 and 5955 BC" (Source: A.Sampson, "The Greek Neolithical Civilization", Goulandris Foundation, 1996).



In the above study A.Sampson makes no other mention of the tremendously important discovered Yura potsherds, but confines himself to the description of the fishing activities at the Sporades area during the Neolithic era. The reference material, which he mentions, includes photographs of other finds (fish-hooks, statuettes, decorated pots) from the excavation in question, but not one of the written potsherds.

The photograph of one of the written potsherds came out from the newspaper "Adesmeftos Tipos" (presentation of N.Nikitidis 13 February 1997) in a relevant publication under the title "The most ancient alphabet is Greek". On the surface of the potsherd the letters Alpha, Ypsilon, Delta in a row are clearly distinguished, which make up the root of the word "ÁÕÄÇ" (speech, voice), first encountered in "Theogony" (Hesiodus) as well as in "Iliad" (Homer). In the same publication A.Sampson is reported to confirm that "they are alphabet symbols and make up a conscious act of the ceramist" and reserves his total evaluation of the finds for a future scientific paper.

It must be noted that only a small part of the cave in question, has so far been excavated, thus, in the immediate future probably, the rest written potsherds will be discovered. When this will happen, it will be possible to make a total evaluation of this ancient alphabet type, which doesn't seem to be different from the classic and modern type. These tremendously important finds justify the historic and linguistic view of the simultaneous creation and evolution of the Greek language and Greek alphabet and render beneath significance and importance the Phoenician theory for the History of Civilization.

The same archaeologist at excavations he has done at the island Milos discovered vessels of the proto-Cycladean era (mid 3000 BC) with letters such as "Ε", "Κ", "Μ", "Ν", "Ξ", "Ο" and "Π".


Finally, at Dispilion of the lake at Kastoria, Prof G. Chourmouziades (Γ. Χουρμουζιάδης) discovered a wooden table with writings similar to the Hellenic alphabet, dated around 5200 BC.


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@ Hellas Epsilon 2005- We are back!

[really]

Very good articles, half greek, thanks for posting them. When I have some more time, I will read them carefully, it is a subject that really interests me.

[half greek]

Greek - Mother of all languages

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[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by really
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Socrates in one of his dialogues (I think it was Erythro) mentions that the roots of some Greek words came from another older language. It was pretty interesting because I did not know that there were older languages than the Greek language.

Cratylus (Κρατυλος) is the name of a dialogue by Plato, written in approximately

360 BC. In the dialogue, Socrates is asked by two men, Cratylus and Hermogenes, to tell

them whether names are "conventional" or "natural", that is, whether language is a system

of arbitrary signs or whether words have an intrinsic relation to the things they

signify. In doing this, Cratylus became one of the earliest philosophical texts of the

Classical Greek period to deal with matters of etymology and linguistics.
— Excerpted from Cratylus (dialogue) on Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

I read the dialoque before few days in english translation. I couldnt find the

original text, but if the translators did a good job ,then the meaning would be -almost-

the same.
Our great co-realm-ator, "Really", is the one who came up with the idea of

reading Cratylos and made me to do it.
"Really" said that in "Cratylos" , Socrates claimed the hellenic language originated from

other barbarics. That was the threshold for me to read and see if what Socrates claimed

was true.
Before the start of my commentary, i would like to say that the dialoque was very

boring in the begining, but as the river of words flowed, the dialogue became amusing

with a self-sarcasm Socrates and a cheerful Hermogenes but it closed very heavy with a

serious dialogue between Socrates and Cratylos, which i understood that Cratylos met

Socrates not for learning , but for exchanging ideas, something that didnt happen because

of the voluble talker Socrates. ((i dont like babblers!!!)).


----Soc. To say that names which we do not understand are of foreign origin; and this is

very likely the right answer, and something of this kind may be true of them; but also

the original forms of words may have been lost in the lapse of ages; names have been so

twisted in all manner of ways, that I should not be surprised if the old language when

compared with that now in use would appear to us to be a barbarous tongue.----

----Soc. That objects should be imitated in letters and syllables, and so find

expression, may appear ridiculous, Hermogenes, but it cannot be avoided- there is no

better principle to which we can look for the truth of first names. Deprived of this, we

must have recourse to divine help, like the tragic poets, who in any perplexity have

their Gods waiting in the air; and must get out of our difficulty in like fashion, by

saying that "the Gods gave the first names, and therefore they are right." This will be

the best contrivance, or perhaps that other notion may be even better still, of deriving

them from some barbarous people, for the barbarians are older than we are; or we may say

that antiquity has cast a veil over them, which is the same sort of excuse as the last;

for all these are not reasons but only ingenious excuses for having no reasons concerning

the truth of words. And yet any sort of ignorance of first or primitive names involves an

ignorance of secondary words; for they can only be explained by the primary. Clearly then

the professor of languages should be able to give a very lucid explanation of first

names, or let him be assured he will only talk nonsense about the rest. Do you not

suppose this to be true?----

----Soc. Shall I tell you what I suspect to be the true explanation of this and several

other words?- My belief is that they are of foreign origin. For the Hellenes, especially

those who were under the dominion of the barbarians, often borrowed from them.
Her. Yes, Socrates, I can conceive no correctness of names other than this; you give one

name, and I another; and in different cities and countries there are different names for

the same things; Hellenes differ from barbarians in their use of names, and the several

Hellenic tribes from one another.----



Socrates in the mid of the dialoque is very sure about the foreign origin of some

names-words, which have been adopted by enslaved Hellenes, who were under the dominion of

older barbarians. During the dialogue he alters his mind and thinks there is a

possibility the etymological unknown words would be ancient forgotten hellenic forms.




----Soc.But if the very nature of knowledge changes, at the time when the change occurs

there will be no knowledge; and if the transition is always going on, there will always

be no knowledge, and, according to this view, there will be no one to know and nothing to

be known.----

I think something or someone dont allow to human to find the absolutely

knowledge.





----Soc. My notion would be something of this sort:- I suspect that the sun, moon, earth,

stars, and heaven, which are still the Gods of many barbarians, were the only Gods known

to the aboriginal Hellenes. Seeing that they were always moving and running, from their

running nature they were called Gods or runners (Theous, Theontas); and when men became

acquainted with the other Gods, they proceeded to apply the same name to them all. Do you

think that likely?----

I also have the same belief as Cratylos's. Its too difficult for me to accept

that the well organized hellenic language, of milions of words, is a human creation.

Maybe that thought of mine deprives from the hellenic mind the creation of our language,

but as i said its too difficult for me to accept it.



----Soc. But if things are only to be known through names, how can we suppose that the

givers of names had knowledge, or were legislators before there were names at all, and

therefore before they could have known them?----


----Crat. I believe, Socrates, the true account of the matter to be, that a power more

than human gave things their first names, and that the names which are thus given are

necessarily their true names.----


----Soc. Certainly not. But let us have done with this question and proceed to another,

about which I should like to know whether you think with me. Were we not lately

acknowledging that the first givers of names in states, both Hellenic and barbarous, were

the legislators, and that the art which gave names was the art of the legislator?
Crat. Quite true.
Soc. Tell me, then, did the first legislators, who were the givers of the first names,

know or not know the things which they named?
Crat. They must have known, Socrates.
Soc. Why, yes, friend Cratylus, they could hardly have been ignorant.----

So, the legislators were knowledgeable of the things or of the use of the things

they named. That means everyone could be a legislator in the far ancient times, but he

only named the things who used in his work. For example a painter wasnt able to came up

with a name for a sculpturing tool.
Actually, i wonder whether the noun came up first or the verb? (ex: The noun-seat

or the verb-sit?)



There is also a refferance to entropia, but i ccant find the text now...boredom

[really]

The dialogue was actually pretty interesting when Socrates went on to explain how the Greek words were created. I don't know if you know this site, Apollyon, but I think it has the whole text of the dialogue. A well trusted source also.


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[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by really
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The dialogue was actually pretty interesting when Socrates went on to explain how the Greek words were created. I don't know if you know this site, Apollyon, but I think it has the whole text of the dialogue. A well trusted source also.


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I have the whole dialogue.I just put here ,according to me,the highlighted fragments.
My conclusion is that everyone can philosophize.The first step is to make his brain thinking.

[Napalm]

re: post 13


so the oldest know use of Hellenic language is 6000 BC and the oldest know use of Hellenic letters is 14 000 BC. Does anyone know what the oldest samples available for public viewing (i.e. musem ) are?

[Prokomenos]

Good information people and a good question Napalm. Id like to know aswell and Ill do some browsing to see what I come up with.